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PM ELimin8 to remove Black

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PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby SophieA » 03 Nov 2008 10:33 pm

OK so before I left the Salon for three weeks, we booked 2 color corrections. Both were removing Dark color...one of them very dark, close to black.

We used Elimin8 on both...

On the black long curly hair we ended up applying it 3 times each time with heat and completed through step 3.
Her hair was in exceptional condition and her Natural color is a 6 level ashy color, of which she had 4" new growth.

The problem was that She really didn't want to see any warmth when we were done.
In hind site we'd have had better luck stripping it with bleach...
and this is why, after the 3 Elimin8 applications she was lightened pretty nicely, with warmth of course and the 4 inches of her own hair looked good...a little warm, not bad.

Here is where it got maddening...of course we wanted to tone it. As soon as the toner was applied the developer in the toner (3%, 10 vol) reactivated the old color molecules...and we were right back where we started.

Is anyone familiar with this phenomenon? I know that really Dark semi-demi permanent color is the worst to remove, and I haven't removed a dark color in a few years.
the last time I used a bleach wash I think.

Anyway any input would be appreciated. :)
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby sls » 03 Nov 2008 11:22 pm

Hey Sophie...believe me, I feel your pain, have had this happen to me and it was the most frustrating thing in the world. I've learned to do a strand test, with developer after the pravanna is out and dried to make sure enough of the pigment is out and will not reactivate...if it turns dark again..beware. You will have to possibly apply pravanna again...or at this point you may want to do a light bleach cap...trust me...this is the least damaging way..to have started out with bleach would have comprimised the hair too much. You also want to choose your color at least two levels lighter (sometimes three) than your desired target shade because of the color uptake being so much greater...Strand tests will give you your perfect shade selection. With pravanna I always shampoo twice...and the second application I set under a hot dryer for five to ten mins...this helps greatly with further removing the intermediates from the hair. Hope this helps! Shawn
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby Phill » 04 Nov 2008 05:10 am

I have only ever used a stripper a few times and on the most part its been great, but on black or saturated hair I have never had success and to cut out warmth - forget it.
One that they stress though was to do a peroxide rinse. ( 10vol with half water ) and pour over the hair to check if any of the pigments will reform.
I think that easiest thing is tell them to let it fade off before you are willing to do any color. Especially if they had been doing the color themselves, let them wait and wait some more. Why put yourself through the pain of trying to fix their stupidity.
It does seem that your clients in the US hate warmth, every one want ash hair? How drab, warmth is good love glossy golden locks or muted coppers.
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby MariaQr » 04 Nov 2008 06:06 am

Hi Sophia.
Yes. I don't use that exact product but logic is the same with color remover.
ok i have the results but i want to cover the warmth on the hair. Personally i never use toners (too many color ingredients). I never use less than 20v peroxide. I need regular permanent color at least 2 lv lighter than the one i would usually use. 20v or even 30v peroxide. The idea is to add color as much dissoluted as possible. Take client in washing basin and then practically throw the color on hair (as quickly as possible). don't leave her for no reason. You may need to remove color in 3-5 minutes or you may need 20. All depends on hair porosity.
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby SophieA » 04 Nov 2008 07:36 pm

sls!! wrote: I've learned to do a strand test, with developer after the pravanna is out and dried to make sure enough of the pigment is out and will not reactivate...if it turns dark again..beware.



Really great point ...I'll remember this one and her hair really could have handled the bleach cap. But we were so into keeping her 4" of new growth intact. But as I said, in hind site I would have done the bleach cap.

sls!! wrote: You also want to choose your color at least two levels lighter (sometimes three) than your desired target shade because of the color uptake being so much greater...Strand tests will give you your perfect shade selection.


Another great pointer!!

Thank you Shawn


Phill!! wrote:I have only ever used a stripper a few times and on the most part its been great, but on black or saturated hair I have never had success and to cut out warmth - forget it.


One of the things I wish I would have been straighter about with the client.

Phill!! wrote:One that they stress though was to do a peroxide rinse. ( 10vol with half water ) and pour over the hair to check if any of the pigments will reform.[
I think that easiest thing is tell them to let it fade off before you are willing to do any color. glossy golden locks or muted coppers.


I will as I said be applying this step. Really good points...I really agree with the warmth thing, I was lucky that the other client wanted red in her hair when we were done and her brown wasn't nearly as dark.
On the letting it fade thing, we saw her in the spring...she lives in Arizona (along way away from Michigan) and she really did well not doing anything to it for about 3.5 inches of new growth...but I swear that Black hardly faded even in the AZ. sun. :roll:


MiriaQ!! wrote:Hi Sophia.
Yes. I don't use that exact product but logic is the same with color remover.
ok i have the results but i want to cover the warmth on the hair. Personally i never use toners (too many color ingredients). I never use less than 20v peroxide. I need regular permanent color at least 2 lv lighter than the one i would usually use. 20v or even 30v peroxide. The idea is to add color as much dissoluted as possible. Take client in washing basin and then practically throw the color on hair (as quickly as possible). don't leave her for no reason. You may need to remove color in 3-5 minutes or you may need 20. All depends on hair porosity


Excellent point Maria! We did apply the toner fast at the bowl but I don't usually tone with higher Volume developers...but I see you point. Thank you so much Maria & all of you guys

The Blk haired needed something to blend that 4" new growth so we ended up highlighting the next day. Not perfect and we will see her in the spring again before her wedding.
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby Jeni Giles » 04 Nov 2008 09:37 pm

Students go from blonde to black on an almost daily basis- little do they know that their assignment next week is to turn the heads they all turned black this week back to an acceptable brown. (I should have at least one bald mannequin...lol)

We've found a few things that help-
Dilute your toner with developer- instead of the manufacturer's recommended measurements, double or triple the developer for a more pastel shade, use a low volume, 5 or 10 and do it at the shampoo bowl, then you can use the level that you need, but with out the amount of deposit normally delivered.

"OLD school"- coat hair with moisturizing masque, then tone, still at the shampoo bowl and quickly. Seems to keep the hair from absorbing as much.

We use the Scruples Color Delete, seems to work pretty well for us, does seem to keep the hair in good condition for being lightened and we haven't had a huge problem of going too dark, but we us the above tricks (along with the time honored strand test) when toning over color corrected black.
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby SophieA » 06 Nov 2008 02:28 pm

Jeni Giles wrote:Students go from blonde to black on an almost daily basis- little do they know that their assignment next week is to turn the heads they all turned black this week back to an acceptable brown. (I should have at least one bald mannequin...lol)

We've found a few things that help-
Dilute your toner with developer- instead of the manufacturer's recommended measurements, double or triple the developer for a more pastel shade, use a low volume, 5 or 10 and do it at the shampoo bowl, then you can use the level that you need, but with out the amount of deposit normally delivered.

"OLD school"- coat hair with moisturizing masque, then tone, still at the shampoo bowl and quickly. Seems to keep the hair from absorbing as much.

We use the Scruples Color Delete, seems to work pretty well for us, does seem to keep the hair in good condition for being lightened and we haven't had a huge problem of going too dark, but we us the above tricks (along with the time honored strand test) when toning over color corrected black.


Thank You Jeni; I think I will order some Scruples Delete. Is that a sulfur based product? I think the Elimi8 is...(sulfur or sulfa...??) someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess I'm just wondering how similar the two products are.

What are some of the other color removers the rest of you Guru's are using??

Hey Jeni, let us know how your students do with their color remove assignments. Thanks Girl
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby Jeni Giles » 12 Nov 2008 04:31 pm

Progress update...1 balding doll.... in patches :happy:
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby sls » 12 Nov 2008 06:01 pm

LOL Jeni...one bald with patches so far eh? Keep us posted on what the rest of the mannis are lookin like!
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby SophieA » 12 Nov 2008 08:58 pm

Jeni Giles wrote:Progress update...1 balding doll.... in patches :happy:


Heeee! It's a good thing they're using dolls.

:phew: :interest:
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby SYL » 13 Nov 2008 01:26 am

I have used Paul Mitchell's Backtrack, with nice results.
But I'm not sure I would use it on that heavy overlapped black. You can apply Backtrack up to three times, but most that have box colored their hair over and over, don't want to pay the price of three backtrack treatments.
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Re: PM ELimin8 to remove Black

Postby SophieA » 13 Nov 2008 01:33 am

SYL wrote:I have used Paul Mitchell's Backtrack, with nice results.
But I'm not sure I would use it on that heavy overlapped black. You can apply Backtrack up to three times, but most that have box colored their hair over and over, don't want to pay the price of three backtrack treatments.


Thanks SYL..good point. I wonder how similar these three products are. most likely very similar.
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