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HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

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HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby Dave » 23 Nov 2008 11:49 pm

Hi everyone,

Yesterday I had a client, her hair was I'd say a 5 base colour, she had some blonde bits from previous highlights - about 1/2 the hair was natural base +- 3 inches, with +- 3 inches blonde. She wanted to go blonde all over - full blonding tint, I applied Majirel 10 1/2.1 (half tube) with a half tube Magiblond 902 with 12% peroxide, applied this mix to the regrowth (natural base) area all over the head, when I was done I pulled the leftover mix throught the blond ends, put her under the climazone for 20 mins then rinsed and shampood with a silverising shampoo.

When the hair was wet it looked REALLY orange, but dry it was more of a honey / warm / orangish blonde, luckily for me she liked the colour and didn't want any correcting, however we aimed for a light white blonde - that's why I used the 10 1/2.1 - the .1 being ash, so I was surprised at the outcome, based on this two questions come to mind - if anyone could kindly advise:

1. Why didn't I reach my required results - what should I have done differently;
2. If she wanted a colour correction as such - or for us to have taken her closer to her initial desired results - what actions could I have taken? I have luocolour PO1 - would an application of that have helped, if so how would I have applied it (I also have Luocolour 9.1 & 10.01 all ashes, would these have helped), or would re-applying Magiblond with a 3% peroxide and repeating the whole tinting process have been a better idea).....confused... or mixing the Magiblond previously used, once again with an ash 10 (or higher) be a better bet...)

Lol sorry, you can see how confused I am, but I want to get it right the next time around, or at the worst - at least know how to correct it!

ps - Maybe I could have processed her longer in the first place but I checked her hair after the 20 mins under the climazone and a few hairs came off and clung to my fingers so I panicked and rinsed immediately in case all her hair fell out because I used 12% and not a lower level - she did say she loses hair quite easily, even though her hair was very thick - but I didn't want to take a chance by having a ginger client sitting balding in front of me!!!!

lol, thanks everyone, I know that was looooong winded!

Take care
xD
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby MariaQr » 24 Nov 2008 06:36 am

Hi Dave.
This 5 natural hair that we want to reach 10 is an issue here in Greece too. :lol:
Every time we hairdressers meet this is no1 subject.
Well no matter what color line we use we have to remember that blond colors like majiblond lift hair up to 4,5 tones no more. Plus hair that are thick are more difficult to get so much lighten up than others even with bleach.
I have used majiblond a lot, i have used the blonds of wella and other color lines as well. Same all. :(
If we want lv 5 to reach white blond we have to bleach. Your choice of 901 was good, i have even used 911. The result was a beige blond (little dull) but not that pure white blond i can get when hair are lv 6 or 7 and fine.
So i have learned early to explain this to my clients. There are some tricks that we can use in cases like that but they take time and i am not sure that we can be paid enough for using these tricks.
One trick is to apply color 901 with 40v. peroxide leave it on for an hour without heat but in the half hour time i re-apply new and fresh made mixture of 901 and 30v peroxide. This usually gives me a boost in the former mixture which tends to fade after 1/2 of exposure in the air. But all i can get out of it is with difficulty 1/2 tone more and i rarely use it because it is not worth the effort or the money.
An other trick is to develop color as usual but do the corrective color in the washing basin with an ash shade. But this get fade away after a few shampoos and the result is an unhappy client.
Best is to use bleach for skin use. I find that blondor cream for the skin is really good and i can use it to light up lv. natural hair in 50 min. with 20 v. peroxide. then i apply the color shade (usually something ash).
But if the client insist that she doesn't want bleach then i explain that the result she wants isn't exactly like the hair sample she sees. So i offer the solution of some high lights added on hair so that we get the impression of lv. 10 in total. This is the choice most client's prefer and i am happy because they can see the extra effort that is done and this is payed at the end.
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby Dave » 24 Nov 2008 08:03 am

Hi Maria - thanks for the long detailed response it will really hep me in the future and it's good to know that I mostly seemed to be on the right track at least!

Take care
xD
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby presotto » 24 Nov 2008 08:25 am

You can't get level 5 to a level 10 tint doesn't lift that far. The best you can hope for on a level 5 fine hair is to get to a level 7 medium with a gold ULP.
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby son » 24 Nov 2008 11:39 am

Hi maria, just wanted to clarify what you wrote so i understand right... as this is an issue i have with some clients.. do you bleach + 20vol on scalp, process, rinse then apply target shade? ... i find it difficult to get to platnum blonde even if the base is lighter :( ... seem to always be toning out gold no matter how light i can get it... regards sonya
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby Dyeabolique » 24 Nov 2008 02:25 pm

Hello,
Just like everyone says, you cannot get 5 full levels of lift,, I don't care what your maufacturer tells you... but you can get a level 5 to a much more acceptable tone.

There are some "cheats" to get you to a more pure tone, instead of the overly warm honey blonde.
rule number 1 in ANY color line is when you use levels 8,9,10 there will always be more ammonia to open the cuticle up, but the pigment load is much lighter than in your darker levels.

What you need to understand is that lifting the 4-4 1/2 levels that you did get, the underlying pigment was yellow, well without enough pigment load in the level 10, you need to add some pigment into your formulation. You should have some concentrated tubes of pigment or "kickers" to add to your formulas.
You need a SOFT violet pigment to nuetralize the yellow that was left when you lifted.
Don't just reach for the "ash" until you know what color direction ash really is in your particular color line.
Also keep in mind if you use heat,,, heat degrades or "eats up" cool color pigments.. so if you need to use heat to speed up the process or get that extra bump of lift,, you will have to replace the pigment that is going to vanish.
A good rule of thumb when it comes to using concentrates or kickers is 1 gram to every 10 grams of color (without developer)

good luck in the future!
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby sls » 24 Nov 2008 05:01 pm

The "golden beige" end result you are seeing is actually the pheomelanins being exposed from the single process hilift tint. Pheomelanins are the smaller, more diffuse gold and red pigments which are extremely difficult to remove from the hair. Granular pigment (Eumelanins) are larger, and easily removed. When they are extracted from the hair during the oxidation process, its the Pheomelanins we see that are ranging from a "brassy" reddish gold, to yellow. Persulfates, (lightener or bleach) is the one true enemy of Pheomelanins and to obtain a pale, clear or translucent blonde, we must pre-lighten the hair first, there are no ways around it. Like Sophia said, you could attempt "toning" of hilift color treated hair, but the simple fact is...the unattractive warmth will show back up once again after shampooing! An interesting note...melanins occur in almost every living thing, the plant, the animal and the protista kingdoms.
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby haircut60 » 24 Nov 2008 10:32 pm

As several people have said the most levelsof lift you can expect on base 5 is 4 and it will have warmth-a lot!
Best to pre lighten to level 8 - 10 and then tone.
Also your original mix . It is not a good idea to mix Majirel with Majiblonde. Use 911 and 35vol. for best lift, development is 45-50 mins.Then tone if needed with a separate application of 10.1 and 10vol.
Also watch application on large regrowths. Use middle band application first , then roots and see what develops. Tone ends with whatever the rest shows depth wise.
Good luck and don't promise the client an unachievable result !! Marian
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby MariaQr » 25 Nov 2008 06:14 am

It seem that i have to give some more details on this post.
Yes i know it is an issue that is very very analyzed and not without a reason. Because most of the women want to be blond.
About Sonya's question...
Yes when i have to light up natural level 5 hair with bleach i usually use the special one that is for skin with 20 vol. peroxide. It will give me results within 50 min. with a pale yellow undertone (=yellow undertone)
which i have to correct with color (or even better tone) in the washing basin. When i say i use 20 vol. i usually mean blondor cream by wella. And yes time is important for the product to gradually light up the hair.
And here comes dyabolique's comment...
When i bleach it is ok and when i reach this pale yellow undertone and just want white (not beige, not silver but white)violet is the best choise. I couldn't agree more. But when it comes to color i rarely use a violet shade. Because no color can give me so much lighten up hair that the underline pigment will be pale yellow. I only have seen this happen when there are over 60% white. Even when i have natural hair 6 or 7 the underlying color is too gold to be covered with violet. So when i am about to make a blond with color i will choose ash shade (or ash with neutral or just neutral when i have lots of white).
And haircut about promising to the client... Maybe this could be another topic... When i have a lv. 5 natural hair and she wants 10 just with color i am not afraid to say: "that is mission impossible". I will offer the solution of bleach or color and highlights.
I know she may choose to go to another salon that will promise her result and do bleach without saying or put bleach in the color (i have seen this too happen). But i also know that she will come back to me sooner or later. Because she will trust me telling her the truth.
I am sorry for the long post but this blond issue is like the question who am i and why i am on this planet? :interest:
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby Dyeabolique » 25 Nov 2008 01:35 pm

First of all I'm going to apologize, because I simply didn't remember that the target was color was a white blonde in the origianl post.

I concentrated my response to the remark that the end result was a too warm honey blonde, that the client seemed to like it, so there was no need for correcting.

I just wanted to let you know that there were some "cheats" you could use to get that end result to a more neutral tone on darker natural shades.......(not white, bleach is your only solution,, and we all know, and agree to that statement :happy:

There are most definately unbreakable rules pertaining to the science of color.
However, once these are mastered inside and out, you learn which ones you can "tweak" a little bit,, to work to your advantage.

I'm sorry if I stepped on any toes, I think I was misunderstood, and that was not my intention.
Dye
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby Jeni Giles » 25 Nov 2008 05:59 pm

You may consider stepping up to a 901S majilift or presoftening with a bleach at the scalp when trying to achieve those pastel blonde shades.

Toning is always and option- the P01 luo would work, especially when mixed with a 10.1 or 9.1 personally I like it with 10N and have achieved acceptable results. When you are working with toners, keep in mind that they process very quickly and only last through a couple of shampoos. If you choose a color with the appropriate base and at the level you have reached, you will be more successful...example you reached a full level 8 deep yellow, choose a level 8 or 9 with a violet/blue base. Don't try to use a pastel shade to correct a remaining base that isn't light enough, it usually doesn't work ;) my students try it all the time....they're learning, haven't had a late night call for quite a while!!
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby MariaQr » 26 Nov 2008 05:56 am

Well... :shame:
the question was that the client wanted full blond all over but the result was orange. And from that point we all talked about blond. And we all get carried away with this issue. I want also to apologize to dyeabolique because i may sounded like someone stepped on my toes. I was the one who talked about bleaching and i did so because usually this is what women who want blond ask here in Greece. So i pulled the topic a little far to cover all :surrender:
Forgive me but i am still learning not to be so carried away when i talk about something that i love. So Dyeabolique i am sorry for making you feel uncomfortable. It was not my intention.
My apologies also to Sonya and haircut. I just wanted to give a clear answer and maybe i sounded carried away but really i was not. : )
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby presotto » 26 Nov 2008 07:09 am

Maria it is great to have passionate people! It does make it a little difficult to understand someones intentions via this medium. And we all have to learn a little give and take when it comes to reading replies from members.
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby Dyeabolique » 26 Nov 2008 01:34 pm

I'm glad that we are all passionate about our industry. If we didn't have this passion we would not be any different than the "walk in, wait..n' wack" down the street. :happy:

Maria,
σ' ευχαριστώ

I really hope that translation is right! I don't want to say something completely inappropriate.
I love love love all things Greek, so you, I want to keep happy,, :happy:
I had the honor of visiting last summer, and all my life I've felt a weird connection with Greece.. do not laugh,,haha
I think I was there in a past life!

Hope the holiday season is being prosperous for all!
Dye
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Re: HOW TO TAKE A LEVEL 5 TO A LEVEL 10 WITHOUT BLEACHING?

Postby chris the limey » 26 Nov 2008 02:28 pm

Dyeabolique wrote:I love love love all things Greek, so you, I want to keep happy,, :happy:

Dye


I wonder why? LOL

Image

Could that example be influencing your decision Dye?
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